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Saturday
Sep152012

Top 50 Players All-Time, Part 2: #34 to 10

Chris Paul and LeBron James are the only current players still in their first 10 seasons to get ranked in this top 50. Where should they be now, and how high will they get?After having evaluated the top players historically at each position (C, PF, SF, SG, PG), it's time to put it all together and try to create one list. As I've stated before, the key thing I'm looking for is a player's ability to improve his team's odds of winning games and contending, so both regular and post-season success are factors.

There are a zillion considerations that could fill an entire article of their own when putting together any list like this, but I'll try to standardize how I look at the players without complicating things too much. My scenario for considering the value of these players in helping a team contend is:

 

I can add two good players to a squad whose remainder is 10 average players that cover all the positions, and our goal is to play together for 10 years in a modern-style league and to contend for and win as many titles as possible. The two good players will use their best 8-year stretch throughout the hypothetical decade (considerations allowed for freak injuries, forced to be a backup for too long, baseball sabbaticals, etc – and we're talking abilities & intangibles here, not their stats), with two random seasons from their career that don't fall in the 8-year stretch thrown in at two random spots. So you get the best 8-year stretch of two players, plus two other random seasons from their careers (this helps guys like Parish, hurts guys like Reed), and you want to do as well as you can next to otherwise average teammates for a decade.

 

That's the basic scenario, and these top-50 are generally grouped by what their role would be as one of those two good players. This isn't a perfect scenario, but it's at least an attempt to consider them all under the same pretenses. Some of the guy's careers are very difficult to place into it, but I attempted to consider a fairly consistent version of it for everyone.

 

This second group, players 10 through 34, are here because they either had a good peak that could carry a contender for some years but it was too short for our decade scenario, or they could be a highly valuable complementary player for all 10 seasons. These players could all be a major part of a team that did quite well for a decade, but each showed one or more limitations that forces you to really consider who the other good player is that they're paired with. Ultimately a team cannot be a top contender for nearly 10 full seasons with any of these guys as their best player; that would be the legends in the top 9.

The rest of the top 50 is:
Part 1, #35-50
Part 3, #1-9

 

34. Walt Frazier - One of the premier big-game and defensive PG's of all-time. He wore smaller defenders down in order to take high percentage shots, but his lack of speed and an outside shot makes his transition to today's game tough to extrapolate.

33. Kevin McHale - McHale was a fantastic scorer and outstanding defender, but he wasn't the type of player you could hang your franchise on for years.

32. Dirk Nowitzki - He could carry a club and perform in the clutch, but he lacked consistency in a lot of areas, which hurt the consistency of his teams in the post-season.

31. Chris Paul - His complete orchestration of a team's success is very similar to Isiah (who CP3 is a better shooter than) or Nash (who CP3 is a better defender than), but I'm a bit worried about his recurring injuries and occasional too-willing-to-defer-in-big-moments attitude. He's only 7 years into his career, but he's consistently shown what it takes to finish as a top-25 player.

30. Dave DeBusschere - There have been very few complementary players who could set the tone for a contender, but DeBusschere was one of them. Look at his tremendous defense, rebounding, and outside shooting, and he would make one hell of a second fiddle.

29. Billy Cunningham - Played tough, always did what was best for the team, and could put up points, grab boards at a high rate, and pass it well for a forward. Ultimately though, he's still not "the man" on a regular contender.

28. John Stockton - Stockton looks phenomenal on paper and was a great leader, but remember that his apex was lower than almost all of his decent assumed-to-be-lesser contemporaries like Payton, KJ, and Hardaway. He's one of the most notorious beneficiaries of hometown stat-keepers in history.

Willis Reed (19) and Dave Cowens (18) were big-time battlers in the early-70's.

27. Willis Reed - Reed is incredibly tough to rank since he kicked serious ass at both ends of the floor for an iconic team, but his career was basically 7 years long.

26. Dave Cowens - Cowens played at a high level for a strong team for a little longer than Reed. That and slightly superior rebounding gives him the nod between the two even with Reed being both a better scorer and defender.

25. Julius Erving – Erving carried some disjointed Sixers clubs to great heights before Moses arrived and got them to the promised land. There are plenty of holes in Dr. J's game that would hurt him today (tricky to rank for this reason - could slide as low as 40-ish based on his lacking jumper, defense, and passing), but his emotional and on-court leadership added tremendous value.
24. Charles Barkley - Barkley certainly did a great job carrying a bad Sixers club for years, but he also didn't know when to let his skilled teammates do some of the heavy lifting while in Phoenix, which ended up hurting them in multiple playoffs.

23. Karl Malone - Great numbers forever, but he needed someone else to carry the club through the playoffs and fourth quarters.

22. Bob Cousy - One of maybe 4 or 5 truly transcendent PG's who could transform an entire team's offense, but Cousy still needed teammates who could provide the D.

21. David Robinson - Great teammate, great defender, very good scorer and rebounder...but when push came to shove in the playoffs, he just couldn't keep up with great opposing centers.

20. LeBron James - This is pretty much the spot James would earn if he retired today. I'm not sure how high he'll get to because on one hand he's obviously ultra-talented and versatile and can carry every type of squad, but on the other hand his post-season meltdowns during his first 8 seasons were a little bit much.

19. Scottie Pippen - Pippen is one of the most versatile ballers of all-time, and an unbelievable defender. His plateau of greatness, however, wasn't particularly long for an all-time legend considering he never had a real peak (his best season, '93-94, wasn't particularly mind-blowing for a HOFer considering how pitifully shallow the East's talent was at the time).

18. Sam Jones - Super scorer (efficiency and versatility) who was super clutch - would have been a SportsCenter legend today. Unfortunately for his ranking, he was a reluctant leader who never wanted the responsibility of being "the man" full-time.

17. Bob Pettit - Absolute beast down low, banging heads with everyone for some unbelievable numbers that carried his team to 4 Finals in 5 years. Similar to Kevin Love, his team's style of play was limited due to his bad defense and athleticism.

16. John Havlicek - Basically a slightly better version of Pippen with a stronger true peak.

15. Wilt Chamberlain - Without question the hardest player to rank on this list. He could dominate the game in many ways and was often the centerpiece of contenders, yet he routinely faded away in the most crucial games and moments, and everyone hated playing with him so much he was traded twice in his prime. It should be noted that he played radically reduced roles on the two championships he was part of (averaged 12 shots/gm those 2 seasons - averaged 31 shots/gm up until that '67 Sixers team). He could transform a club in the regular season...but only for so many years until the whole squad would blow up under his self-serving stat-chasing and backstabbing. Is that the guy you'd build around for 10 years, because no one did? I could easily leave him completely off this list (for the record, I would never pick him for my team), but he really could carry a club to a high seed while having highly efficient numbers for years at a time.

14. Kevin Garnett - He's shown that he can put a bad team on his back or be the alpha-dog leader on a squad of Hall of Famers, but he better have someone else next to him willing to shoulder some playoffs responsibilities because KG tends to defer too much on that stage.

Kareem was awesome, but he usually wanted no part of the ultra-physical Moses Malone.

13. Moses Malone - Malone put together an absolutely monstrous 6-7 year peak, yet the rest of his career doesn't match up very well, and he was constantly changing franchises.

12. Steve Nash - I know a ranking this high seems odd for such a terrible defender (not much worse than Magic, btw), but he was everything I said about Cousy except also an unbelievable shooter, which is why his teams' success reacted so strongly to his presence. It's a shame it took so long for him to finally get to play with a great defensive big man like Magic and Cousy had helping them win titles for years.

11. Jason Kidd - Carried bad surrounding talent further than any star ever. Could absolutely change a team's offense by making everyone better, plus he was a great defender. Think I ranked Kidd too high? If you only get two good players in the stated scenario, don't you want one who has tons of experience improving non-good teammates and lifted them to consecutive Finals?

10. Isiah Thomas - Not only was Isiah perfect at knowing when to flip the switch between facilitator and taking over (resulting in some of the hugest playoff games ever for a PG), the Pistons adopted his tough, gritty, tenacious attitude as their own and rode it to great heights. He had everything you'd want in a PG except an outside shot and better leadership early in his career.

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Reader Comments (10)

Do you realize that you dont match up the top 50 with the other by-position lists? Meaning you have some people ranked lower on one list and higher on the other one

September 15, 2012 | Unregistered Commenterdude

Nice catch, and thanks for the comment.
I do realize that. First of all, when you start ranking the 5th, 6th, 7th, etc best players at positions, there's often a lot of fluidity that can change an opinion several times in a short amount of time. Also, I used a very specific scenario to consider the players for the top-50 that I did not use for the other lists. I'm not saying the two different types of articles (by position & overall) shouldn't line up, but I did think a lot more exactly about why I'm taking these 50.

September 15, 2012 | Registered CommenterZachariah Blott

I honestly think this is an elaborate facade. You're just a troll. You have NO clue what you're talking about. You have no objective stats (which, as much as you'd hate to admit it, is necessary in rankings). How can you have Nash over LeBron James (I'm not a LeBron James lover, just a lover of intellectual honesty) when he is not 1/10 of the player LeBron is.

Let's use your pro-con way of approaching:

Nash:

Pros:

Great "pure" PG.
Legendary shooter (someone did an article claiming he's the best of all-time.
Selfless player.

Cons:

TERRIBLE defender.
No rings.
Not an alpha male.
Not one Finals appearance.

LeBron:

Pros:

Single greatest athlete of all-time.
One of the best perimeter defenders EVER.
Great scorer.
Constant triple-double threat.
Makes teammates better.
One of the best slashers ever.

Cons:

Up until this season EXTREMELY inconsistent in the clutch.
Average jumpshot.

As for career accomplishments, James has Nash destroyed.

James is a top-10 talent of all-time. To say otherwise is absurd.

Wilt Chamberlain at number 14? He was the most statistically dominant player EVER! Your argument: He faded away in big games? How about until 1967 there was no viable threat that the Celtics had to worry about when they focused their attention on him. The man was Shaq before Shaq. A traditional center can't be clutch, anyways. They're down in the block, and their skillset allows them to be 15 feet - MAX - from the basket. You can't be clutch with no offensive versatility.

You play his lack of championships/post-season experience to two things, seemingly: Not clutch, and a stat-padder. Yet you give him no leeway since he played against HANDS-DOWN, HANDS-DOWN the best dynasty in NBA history. 7 HOF's on the Celtics, the 80's Celtics/Lakers, or 90's Bulls would be hard-pressed to compete against them.

September 16, 2012 | Unregistered CommenterTom

You obviously have missed the entire premise I'm using to rank all players. You have to actually read the part that comes before the list. LeBron hasn't even played 10 seasons yet and Chamberlain was universally hated by this teammates/coaches/teams and had the biggest "loser" reputation of probably any player ever. Again, try some reading and you'll learn these commonly accepted facts. Or simply rant without the benefit of facts.

September 16, 2012 | Unregistered CommenterZachariah Blott

@ Zachariah Blott
hi. im writing to you referring to your list of greatest shooting guards ever. how can u not put iveron in top fifty greatest players ever. you are a joke who has no credibility. how can you trash talk iverson like that on your list saying he
was terrible shooting percentages
way too many turnovers
drove coaches crazy
alienated and brutalized teammates
was a major off-the-court distraction
as a player. you have no credibility at all let me explain. . He was extremely talented, probably the most talented little man(under 6ft) to ever play in the league. And one of the most gifted athletes EVER.. As soon as Iverson was drafted Philly wanted him to be the next MJ, they made so much money off this man, and so did the league. If you even watch any of his game highlight, you rarely heard a court-side analyst criticize his game. would carry his team to the playoffs every year in Philly, playing 44+ minutes a game, getting knocked to the floor 10 times a game, and people would expected him to play every night. He's 6 FT at the most and 175 lbs at the most. How the hell do you expect him to PRACTICE, YES PRACTICE taking a beating every night. Everybody wanted this guy to SCORE, he was an PURE entertainment. He passed the ball to Eric Snow, and Aaron McKie but THEY PASSED IT RIGHT BACK. 76ers knowingly ran their game plan thru him, he was loved by fan's and hated by the media(but who likes the media). He always gave them a chance to win, that's why the city loved him.

1. Yes, he had a low shooting percentage, but people forget that he was league leader in FT attempts and FT made almost every year of his career. Which is not accounted for in his FG%
2. Yess, Iverson had a high tunover numbers, who doesn't when the offense is run thru every play. Steve Nash lead the league in TO few years, and DRose average a whopping 5 turnovers per game last year.
. 3. But no coach ever said they disliked him or coaching him His two best coach's loved him Larry Brown and George Karl.
4.. Iverson NEVER alienated or brutalized his teammates. Allen every year said he loved his teammates no matter who that had on the squad.
5. Iverson was deemed an off court distraction before he got in the NBA. In HS where he served 4 months in jail for a bowling alley brawl that he had nothing to do with. The Judge later granted him clemency.
6. He never choked, he faced one of the best Championship teams the NBA has ever seen. The Lakers only lost one game that playoff run, and that was to the 76ers where he dropped 48 in GM1.
7. 7. And again how can you Practice when you get beat up every game. The main point he was trying to get across in his "PRACTICE" press conference was, WHY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT PRACTICE, when we have ACTUAL GAMES to WIN. If I'm INJURED, I'm INJURED, ........We don't even expect that out of today's players!! D-wade barely practiced during the playoffs. The whole Celtics team took off practice for an whole series least season.
8. again Allen is only 6 foots height.The impact that he brings to basketball is unbelieveable. He plays every game like it's his last and look at the mirror and said he did it his way.
9. Iverson was a product of the game... the game became isolation basketball... the game favored volume scorers... the rules have changed and those kinds of players can not exists any more.

September 16, 2012 | Unregistered CommenterIlya77

If you're going to write about one article in the comments of another article, then I'll simply refer you here:

http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/9/25/its-all-about-the-ws-allen-iverson.html

It's an examination of Iverson's value as measured through his effect on W-L records, which is basically what this whole series is about.

September 16, 2012 | Registered CommenterZachariah Blott

@ Zachariah Blott, i dont get it.do you want me to write what i wrote in the article that you gave me a link to so you can get a response there from you, or to greatest shootong guards ever comments page

September 16, 2012 | Unregistered Commenterilya77

@ilya77
At this point, whatever you want.

Iverson just didn't have a HOF-like effect on W-L records for more than a few years. That's kind of the final piece that pulls together the poor efficiency, huge team distraction, do-it-myself-with-increasing-inefficiency parts that all kind of stink. From 2001-2003, I'm totally buying what you're saying. The rest of the time, he let the bad surrounding situation get to him far more so than it did for other guys on this list. That's a problem.

September 16, 2012 | Unregistered CommenterZachariah Blott

No Kobe? Wow, burn in hell with your family tonight.

September 18, 2012 | Unregistered CommenterFuckk Youu Moronn

@FYM
To attack an opinion without ever addressing its supporting facts or presenting your own facts tells me your opinion may not be supported with good facts at all, not to get all 6th grade English on you.

At least Kobe fans present themselves as rational human beings...

September 18, 2012 | Registered CommenterZachariah Blott

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